1 00:00:22,731 --> 00:00:23,857 {\an8}Sure. 2 00:00:27,402 --> 00:00:28,653 CLAIRE: So, go ahead. 3 00:00:28,737 --> 00:00:31,114 -Oh, just go ahead, and...? -CLAIRE: Yeah. Sure. 4 00:00:31,156 --> 00:00:35,368 The way memory works is basically to play back, 5 00:00:35,452 --> 00:00:39,039 so to speak, but not in a video recorder sense, 6 00:00:39,122 --> 00:00:41,416 {\an8}to report to someone else what it is 7 00:00:41,458 --> 00:00:44,210 {\an8}that we have seen or heard or who we saw. 8 00:00:44,294 --> 00:00:46,129 Now you say, "Well, why wouldn't it 9 00:00:46,212 --> 00:00:48,131 just be as simple as pushing a little switch 10 00:00:48,173 --> 00:00:50,800 and playing back a tape like a VCR? 11 00:00:50,884 --> 00:00:54,637 Well, because playback is not really accurate. 12 00:00:54,679 --> 00:00:57,307 What we really do is construct. 13 00:00:57,348 --> 00:01:00,310 You have some puzzle pieces, you put them down on the table, 14 00:01:00,393 --> 00:01:01,644 but there are a lot of gaps. 15 00:01:01,728 --> 00:01:04,189 (OVER VIDEO) Well, memory abhors these gaps. 16 00:01:04,272 --> 00:01:06,316 You don't want an incomplete puzzle. 17 00:01:06,399 --> 00:01:09,319 So basically from inferences, from assumptions, 18 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:11,237 {\an8}from incorporation of information 19 00:01:11,321 --> 00:01:12,322 {\an8}from other people, 20 00:01:12,405 --> 00:01:14,199 {\an8}these pieces are literally created 21 00:01:14,282 --> 00:01:16,159 {\an8}and they fill in the gaps. 22 00:01:16,242 --> 00:01:18,328 I knew I wasn't going to make a film 23 00:01:18,411 --> 00:01:23,750 about the whole case because it was too big. 24 00:01:23,833 --> 00:01:26,961 ROBERT SHOMER: The next time around when somebody asks you, 25 00:01:27,003 --> 00:01:29,339 what did you see or what do you remember seeing, 26 00:01:29,422 --> 00:01:30,965 all the pieces are there. 27 00:01:31,007 --> 00:01:33,510 The ones you saw, the ones you created. 28 00:01:34,385 --> 00:01:37,514 We were trying to make a documentary 29 00:01:37,597 --> 00:01:39,974 about false confession. 30 00:01:40,016 --> 00:01:43,186 JOE SAWYER: I think the country is learning that confessions 31 00:01:43,228 --> 00:01:46,147 aren't what we thought they were or what we wanted them to be. 32 00:01:46,189 --> 00:01:47,232 Right. Yeah. 33 00:01:47,774 --> 00:01:50,151 And it should bother us 34 00:01:50,193 --> 00:01:51,861 {\an8}that there are guys in prison 35 00:01:53,154 --> 00:01:56,199 {\an8}who are there wrongly and you are one of them. 36 00:01:56,282 --> 00:01:57,867 CLAIRE: There are some hurdles to that, 37 00:01:57,909 --> 00:02:00,120 which is convincing a viewer 38 00:02:00,203 --> 00:02:02,956 that these are false confessions to begin with. 39 00:02:03,039 --> 00:02:04,707 You know, having that question, 40 00:02:04,791 --> 00:02:08,044 how does a person confess to a crime they didn't commit? 41 00:02:08,128 --> 00:02:11,131 Why not ask the person who confessed? 42 00:02:12,465 --> 00:02:14,592 ♪ (MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪ 43 00:02:16,052 --> 00:02:18,638 {\an8}♪ (SOFT GLOOMY MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 44 00:02:23,226 --> 00:02:25,145 {\an8}PAUL JOHNSON: When I started this case, 45 00:02:25,228 --> 00:02:28,648 {\an8}I came up with about 2000 separate tips. 46 00:02:29,566 --> 00:02:31,317 And so we needed to look into them. 47 00:02:34,028 --> 00:02:37,407 So in 1999, 48 00:02:37,490 --> 00:02:41,995 we started working on the Maurice Pierce tip. 49 00:02:43,496 --> 00:02:46,624 {\an8}There's things that were just unresolved about Maurice. 50 00:02:47,709 --> 00:02:50,170 And when Maurice got arrested back in 1991 51 00:02:50,253 --> 00:02:52,130 {\an8}at the mall with the gun, 52 00:02:52,213 --> 00:02:54,257 roughly ten days after the murders, 53 00:02:54,299 --> 00:02:55,800 sometime during the night, 54 00:02:55,884 --> 00:02:58,052 {\an8}Hector Polanco brought Maurice 55 00:02:58,094 --> 00:03:00,346 {\an8}to an interview room to interview him. 56 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:03,349 At the beginning of the recording, 57 00:03:03,433 --> 00:03:05,894 it says something like, 58 00:03:05,935 --> 00:03:08,104 "Let's go over what we've been talking about." 59 00:03:42,722 --> 00:03:43,973 {\an8}JOHNSON: That interview, 60 00:03:44,015 --> 00:03:46,684 which probably started around midnight, 61 00:03:46,768 --> 00:03:51,314 goes on till the day shift starts coming in. 62 00:03:51,356 --> 00:03:54,150 John Jones, the main person assigned to the case, 63 00:03:54,192 --> 00:03:57,487 Polanco comes out and says, "Okay, this is Maurice. 64 00:03:57,528 --> 00:03:59,030 He's acknowledging some involvement 65 00:03:59,113 --> 00:04:00,573 in the yogurt shop case." 66 00:04:00,657 --> 00:04:04,327 So John Jones takes a separate written statement 67 00:04:04,369 --> 00:04:06,287 from Maurice Pierce. 68 00:04:07,747 --> 00:04:09,457 ♪ (MUSIC TURNS OMINOUS) ♪ 69 00:04:09,499 --> 00:04:10,833 JOHNSON: When I was looking at this case, 70 00:04:10,917 --> 00:04:13,628 I saw that statement that John Jones took. 71 00:04:14,379 --> 00:04:16,130 And when I was digging through 72 00:04:16,172 --> 00:04:18,800 the rest of the evidence, I find this recording. 73 00:04:18,841 --> 00:04:22,178 And I listened to the recording of what Maurice Pierce had said 74 00:04:22,220 --> 00:04:25,765 just before John Jones took Maurice's statement. 75 00:04:25,848 --> 00:04:27,267 And it's not the same. 76 00:04:46,286 --> 00:04:49,706 JOHNSON: His written story involves only meeting with Forrest 77 00:04:49,789 --> 00:04:52,208 in the parking lot of Northcross Mall. 78 00:04:53,001 --> 00:04:54,168 But in that recording, 79 00:04:54,210 --> 00:04:57,797 the story involves... the creek people. 80 00:05:04,304 --> 00:05:07,098 {\an8}JOHNSON: It involves him being in his car with Forrest 81 00:05:07,849 --> 00:05:10,727 over in an apartment complex 82 00:05:10,810 --> 00:05:13,896 where right down from that parking lot is a place 83 00:05:13,980 --> 00:05:15,898 in the creek where people hang out. 84 00:05:16,983 --> 00:05:19,277 And we just call them the creek people 85 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,154 because they hang out at the creek. 86 00:05:22,989 --> 00:05:24,532 KEVIN PARLIN: It was just a spot to get away 87 00:05:24,574 --> 00:05:25,700 from everybody, to hide. 88 00:05:25,742 --> 00:05:27,076 {\an8}Uh, it was a place we could do 89 00:05:27,118 --> 00:05:30,204 {\an8}our illegal underage drinking and not get caught. 90 00:05:30,246 --> 00:05:32,749 {\an8}That was the-- the hangout, and that's-- that's what we did. 91 00:05:32,790 --> 00:05:37,045 {\an8}You know, 15, 16, what-- what-- however old I was at, uh... 92 00:05:37,086 --> 00:05:39,881 We did way too much drinking... (CHUCKLES) ...for our age. 93 00:05:39,922 --> 00:05:42,467 But that was where we were hanging out that night. 94 00:05:43,634 --> 00:05:45,928 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪ 95 00:07:09,846 --> 00:07:12,098 {\an8}JOHNSON: John Jones justifies not thinking 96 00:07:12,181 --> 00:07:13,474 {\an8}Maurice is a suspect 97 00:07:13,516 --> 00:07:17,812 {\an8}because even Hector Polanco couldn't get him to confess. 98 00:07:17,854 --> 00:07:19,689 {\an8}And Polanco can get people to confess 99 00:07:19,772 --> 00:07:21,190 {\an8}even if they're innocent. 100 00:07:22,358 --> 00:07:25,445 Maurice doesn't confess himself on the tape, 101 00:07:25,528 --> 00:07:27,363 but he does say Forrest told him 102 00:07:27,405 --> 00:07:29,240 very specific things that were happening 103 00:07:29,323 --> 00:07:31,200 {\an8}during the commission of the crime. 104 00:07:37,582 --> 00:07:40,042 JOHNSON: And he doesn't say those things to John Jones 105 00:07:40,126 --> 00:07:42,545 when Jones is taking a statement. 106 00:07:42,587 --> 00:07:45,047 Evidently, John Jones never knew the story 107 00:07:45,089 --> 00:07:47,675 that Maurice told to Hector Polanco. 108 00:07:47,717 --> 00:07:50,094 And Hector Polanco never bothered 109 00:07:50,178 --> 00:07:51,804 to look at this written statement 110 00:07:51,888 --> 00:07:54,640 and see that it's different than the story he had heard. 111 00:07:56,392 --> 00:07:59,228 Any time you get somebody telling a story, 112 00:07:59,312 --> 00:08:00,938 and they tell one story, 113 00:08:01,022 --> 00:08:02,648 and then they tell another story, 114 00:08:02,732 --> 00:08:04,775 you don't stop and get-- until you get it resolved 115 00:08:04,859 --> 00:08:06,903 why their stories are different. 116 00:08:06,944 --> 00:08:09,739 You know, Hector Polanco had, at some point, 117 00:08:09,822 --> 00:08:11,574 kind of gotten a bad reputation. 118 00:08:11,657 --> 00:08:14,952 And I'm not sure Jones even cared 119 00:08:15,036 --> 00:08:17,246 what Maurice told Hector Polanco. 120 00:08:17,330 --> 00:08:18,915 I get the impression he wouldn't have 121 00:08:18,998 --> 00:08:21,083 trusted anything Polanco said anyhow. 122 00:08:21,167 --> 00:08:23,586 If I had been investigating, 123 00:08:23,628 --> 00:08:27,089 I think anybody would have wanted to know 124 00:08:27,173 --> 00:08:28,883 if he's telling you a different story 125 00:08:28,925 --> 00:08:30,510 than he just told somebody else. 126 00:08:31,969 --> 00:08:35,389 And, you know, they wired Maurice up, 127 00:08:35,431 --> 00:08:37,767 they say something like "Forrest didn't know 128 00:08:37,850 --> 00:08:41,020 what he was talking about, had no idea what was going on." 129 00:08:41,854 --> 00:08:43,731 And they also interviewed 130 00:08:43,773 --> 00:08:45,733 {\an8}Robert Springsteen and Michael Scott 131 00:08:46,651 --> 00:08:49,070 {\an8}because they were along in the car. 132 00:08:49,820 --> 00:08:51,239 {\an8}MARGARET BROWN: 133 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:52,406 {\an8}No. 134 00:08:52,949 --> 00:08:53,991 {\an8}Okay. 135 00:08:54,075 --> 00:08:56,244 {\an8}MARGARET: 136 00:08:56,285 --> 00:08:57,453 {\an8}I'm just like... 137 00:08:57,495 --> 00:08:58,621 {\an8}(CHUCKLES) 138 00:09:00,540 --> 00:09:03,626 {\an8}MARGARET: 139 00:09:17,848 --> 00:09:19,308 Okay. Um... 140 00:09:20,560 --> 00:09:22,645 You're assuming some things there that-- 141 00:09:22,687 --> 00:09:24,981 {\an8}MARGARET: 142 00:09:25,022 --> 00:09:27,316 {\an8}Well, nobody called him Mace. 143 00:09:30,820 --> 00:09:34,865 {\an8}MARGARET: 144 00:09:50,673 --> 00:09:51,924 (SIGHS) Uh... 145 00:09:56,012 --> 00:09:58,306 I-- I-- Yeah. I'm trying to think how to... 146 00:09:59,265 --> 00:10:01,017 Well, I-- I-- so for-- 147 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:04,061 for Maurice and-- and bringing my name up, 148 00:10:04,145 --> 00:10:06,480 I mean, I-- you know, of course... 149 00:10:07,690 --> 00:10:11,027 I-- because I doubt that he... 150 00:10:12,236 --> 00:10:14,238 really knew any of our names, 151 00:10:14,322 --> 00:10:16,907 uh, back then... 152 00:10:16,991 --> 00:10:21,370 Um... And then obviously-- Yet my name is Mac 153 00:10:21,412 --> 00:10:23,039 and that's pretty much the only name I went-- 154 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,749 I didn't go by Mace. 155 00:10:24,832 --> 00:10:26,250 I don't know where that came from, 156 00:10:26,334 --> 00:10:28,753 but, um, we were easy targets. 157 00:10:28,836 --> 00:10:30,588 People knew we hung out down there 158 00:10:30,671 --> 00:10:32,381 and him not knowing my name 159 00:10:32,423 --> 00:10:35,051 or names of some of the other people down there... 160 00:10:35,092 --> 00:10:37,553 you know, but, you know, there's a group of people-- 161 00:10:37,595 --> 00:10:40,556 tho-- those were the one-- Uh, it's a deflection... 162 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:41,724 I don't... 163 00:10:43,184 --> 00:10:44,852 Yeah. 164 00:10:44,894 --> 00:10:49,231 Maurice's story has always been, Forrest took his gun, 165 00:10:50,274 --> 00:10:51,776 and Forrest probably did it. 166 00:10:51,859 --> 00:10:53,569 ♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 167 00:10:53,611 --> 00:10:55,363 JOHNSON: But I thought it was more likely 168 00:10:55,404 --> 00:10:58,908 that Maurice was actually the one doing the murders. 169 00:10:58,991 --> 00:11:00,826 I thought it was a bit suspicious. 170 00:11:01,952 --> 00:11:03,871 We had these conflicting statements, 171 00:11:03,913 --> 00:11:06,707 the one of the recording that I had already heard, 172 00:11:07,875 --> 00:11:11,837 and then the one that he had written out in 1991. 173 00:11:13,506 --> 00:11:14,840 And I wanted to get... 174 00:11:16,217 --> 00:11:20,262 whatever he claimed the truth to be... right now. 175 00:11:21,097 --> 00:11:23,432 So I talked to him at his house. 176 00:12:55,191 --> 00:12:57,693 ♪ (GRIPPING MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 177 00:12:57,735 --> 00:12:59,403 {\an8}JOHNSON: So, in addition to Forrest, 178 00:12:59,487 --> 00:13:01,363 {\an8}he says he was with Michael Scott 179 00:13:01,405 --> 00:13:03,491 {\an8}and Robert Springsteen that night. 180 00:13:03,532 --> 00:13:07,119 {\an8}I ended up contacting each of them by phone, 181 00:13:07,203 --> 00:13:10,498 and I asked them, just, "What did you do that day?" 182 00:13:12,041 --> 00:13:14,877 And they each told me a story, 183 00:13:14,919 --> 00:13:18,088 and they all involved the other three people, 184 00:13:18,172 --> 00:13:19,840 and they were all different things 185 00:13:19,882 --> 00:13:21,634 about what they did. 186 00:13:21,717 --> 00:13:24,345 I could not clear them. I could not take their alibi. 187 00:13:24,386 --> 00:13:28,015 Their alibis were each other, and they were all different. 188 00:13:28,057 --> 00:13:31,310 But they each talked about going to San Antonio 189 00:13:31,393 --> 00:13:34,647 the night after the murders happened. 190 00:13:34,730 --> 00:13:37,441 They were all together in that stolen Pathfinder. 191 00:13:38,359 --> 00:13:41,111 And each one of them remembered 192 00:13:41,195 --> 00:13:43,989 stopping somewhere along the way and buying a newspaper 193 00:13:44,073 --> 00:13:47,368 and as they're driving, somebody reading the article 194 00:13:47,409 --> 00:13:49,119 about the yogurt shop murders. 195 00:13:50,538 --> 00:13:54,416 Teenagers in a stolen car, driving to see some girlfriend, 196 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:57,086 stopping to get the Sunday paper in the first place, 197 00:13:57,127 --> 00:13:58,921 is kind of suspicious to me. 198 00:14:00,714 --> 00:14:02,424 So we started working 199 00:14:02,508 --> 00:14:05,553 to find out everything we could about these guys. 200 00:14:08,055 --> 00:14:12,101 {\an8}John Jones described them as dudes without dates 201 00:14:12,142 --> 00:14:14,562 {\an8}who would hang out at Northcross Mall 202 00:14:15,813 --> 00:14:18,482 and, you know, watching girls, basically. 203 00:14:20,192 --> 00:14:21,944 {\an8}I thought it was weird that they all four 204 00:14:21,986 --> 00:14:23,696 {\an8}were hanging out in the first place. 205 00:14:23,779 --> 00:14:25,114 I mean, they might have known each other, 206 00:14:25,197 --> 00:14:27,074 but I never thought of them hanging out. 207 00:14:27,908 --> 00:14:29,785 KEVIN: I didn't know them as a group. 208 00:14:30,786 --> 00:14:33,539 I wouldn't have made those connections ever. 209 00:14:34,373 --> 00:14:35,958 Not until I met Forrest later 210 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:38,335 that I knew he had hung out with Maurice. 211 00:14:39,461 --> 00:14:41,964 {\an8}Forrest, he was just kind of a quiet guy. 212 00:14:42,047 --> 00:14:44,633 {\an8}He liked to work, he liked to work on cars. 213 00:14:44,675 --> 00:14:46,552 {\an8}Anything you needed, he would help. 214 00:14:46,635 --> 00:14:48,846 {\an8}AMANDA STATHAM: He always came off as a sweet guy. 215 00:14:48,929 --> 00:14:52,474 {\an8}Really non-assuming, just a nice dude. 216 00:14:52,558 --> 00:14:53,893 {\an8}BEVERLY LOWRY: He was the only one 217 00:14:53,976 --> 00:14:56,437 {\an8}who had a stable home environment, 218 00:14:56,979 --> 00:14:59,315 but he was a follower 219 00:14:59,356 --> 00:15:03,319 and the person he followed was Maurice. 220 00:15:03,402 --> 00:15:05,487 MAC LUDIN: We thought we were the coolest kids 221 00:15:05,529 --> 00:15:06,655 in the neighborhood. 222 00:15:07,615 --> 00:15:08,866 Maurice and his guys thought 223 00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:11,035 they were the coolest kids in the neighborhood. 224 00:15:11,118 --> 00:15:13,162 And yeah, we did not like each other. 225 00:15:13,787 --> 00:15:15,331 {\an8}BEVERLY: Maurice Pierce was 226 00:15:15,414 --> 00:15:17,708 {\an8}always thought of as the ringleader. 227 00:15:17,791 --> 00:15:20,127 {\an8}He always had access to a car. 228 00:15:20,169 --> 00:15:22,004 Didn't he have, like-- It was an old police car. 229 00:15:22,046 --> 00:15:23,172 -It had the spotlight on it? -Yeah. 230 00:15:23,255 --> 00:15:24,965 Yeah. I thought it was real cool. 231 00:15:27,051 --> 00:15:29,053 AMANDA: He was like a grifter. 232 00:15:29,136 --> 00:15:31,347 He's the kind of guy that would steal someone's dog, 233 00:15:31,388 --> 00:15:32,514 wait a while, 234 00:15:32,556 --> 00:15:35,476 and then return it to him for a fucking reward. 235 00:15:36,101 --> 00:15:39,104 Just no moral... 236 00:15:39,188 --> 00:15:41,523 -anything, like-- -I was afraid of him. 237 00:15:41,565 --> 00:15:43,359 -Yeah, he was creepy. -Now, I'm afraid of nobody... 238 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,195 -Yeah. -...but I was a little afraid of him. 239 00:15:46,236 --> 00:15:47,529 {\an8}BEVERLY: Then there were 240 00:15:47,613 --> 00:15:50,366 {\an8}Michael Scott and Rob Springsteen. 241 00:15:50,407 --> 00:15:52,326 {\an8}♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 242 00:15:52,368 --> 00:15:54,703 {\an8}BEVERLY: They had broken family lives. 243 00:15:54,787 --> 00:15:58,666 {\an8}They were kids who wanted to be special in some way, 244 00:15:58,707 --> 00:16:00,417 and the only way they could manage it 245 00:16:00,501 --> 00:16:02,252 was to be bad. 246 00:16:04,630 --> 00:16:07,549 AMANDA: I met Michael Scott my first year of high school. 247 00:16:07,591 --> 00:16:11,095 He was like, you know, T-shirt and jeans and long hair, 248 00:16:11,178 --> 00:16:12,846 like, sort of pothead dude. 249 00:16:14,223 --> 00:16:15,766 His mother didn't live too far away, 250 00:16:15,849 --> 00:16:18,060 and she was working during the day, 251 00:16:18,102 --> 00:16:20,479 so I'd skip school and go smoke dope at his mom's house. 252 00:16:20,562 --> 00:16:21,563 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 253 00:16:21,605 --> 00:16:24,108 AMANDA: And then there was Robert. 254 00:16:24,191 --> 00:16:25,693 Robert was creepy. 255 00:16:25,734 --> 00:16:27,569 -SARAH STATHAM: Creepy as fuck. -AMANDA: Creepy as fuck. 256 00:16:27,611 --> 00:16:30,280 Really just outlier of the outliers. 257 00:16:30,823 --> 00:16:31,824 Really... 258 00:16:31,907 --> 00:16:33,409 I'd sell him mushrooms. 259 00:16:33,951 --> 00:16:34,994 -Did you? -Yeah. 260 00:16:35,077 --> 00:16:37,121 He looked like somebody, like, 261 00:16:37,204 --> 00:16:39,373 that would try to show you his dick in a parking lot. 262 00:16:39,415 --> 00:16:42,167 (CHUCKLES) Yes! He did. 263 00:16:43,085 --> 00:16:45,838 -(SNORTS) Sorry. But he did. -He did. 264 00:16:49,091 --> 00:16:51,677 BEVERLY: It is hard to make the leap 265 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,347 to see them carrying something like this off. 266 00:16:56,348 --> 00:17:01,770 Now, there's a thing about what kind of... 267 00:17:01,854 --> 00:17:03,272 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 268 00:17:03,313 --> 00:17:05,441 ...appearance people make 269 00:17:05,524 --> 00:17:09,319 and who could commit this murder. 270 00:17:09,403 --> 00:17:11,989 It's really dangerous to get off 271 00:17:12,072 --> 00:17:16,160 into who could commit a crime, 272 00:17:16,243 --> 00:17:18,871 any kind of crime, but particularly, a murder. 273 00:17:18,954 --> 00:17:20,497 ♪ (FOREBODING MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 274 00:17:20,581 --> 00:17:22,541 (WATER TRICKLING) 275 00:17:22,624 --> 00:17:24,877 JOHNSON: Our plan was to talk to people 276 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,795 that were in the creek that night 277 00:17:26,837 --> 00:17:30,549 to see if they confirmed seeing Maurice up there, 278 00:17:30,632 --> 00:17:32,968 seeing his car, seeing him do some things 279 00:17:33,010 --> 00:17:35,637 that he had told Hector Polanco he had done. 280 00:17:37,222 --> 00:17:39,516 So we brought them in one at a time. 281 00:17:41,268 --> 00:17:42,311 {\an8}RON LARA: 282 00:17:42,352 --> 00:17:44,480 {\an8}-MAC LUDIN: -LARA: 283 00:17:45,355 --> 00:17:48,484 {\an8}MAC: 284 00:17:49,860 --> 00:17:52,488 When I got the phone call to... 285 00:17:52,529 --> 00:17:54,615 "Hey, can you-- can you help us out with this?" 286 00:17:54,656 --> 00:17:56,784 You know, "We know you were in the area. 287 00:17:56,825 --> 00:17:58,202 Maybe you had seen something," 288 00:17:58,285 --> 00:18:01,622 and you know, me being, "Well, yeah, sure. 289 00:18:01,663 --> 00:18:04,166 I'll-- Whatever I can do to help, I'll come down." 290 00:18:04,208 --> 00:18:07,002 My first thought is, "What took you so long 291 00:18:07,044 --> 00:18:08,879 and why did you not question us?" 292 00:18:08,962 --> 00:18:12,091 We were local young punk kids. 293 00:18:12,174 --> 00:18:14,218 We hung out in that area all the time. 294 00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:17,971 {\an8}LARA: 295 00:18:18,013 --> 00:18:19,890 {\an8}KEVIN: (CHUCKLES) 296 00:18:19,973 --> 00:18:21,683 {\an8}LARA: 297 00:18:22,309 --> 00:18:23,602 {\an8}KEVIN: (SCOFFS) 298 00:18:24,686 --> 00:18:31,693 {\an8}-LARA: -CREEK PERSON 1: 299 00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:34,905 {\an8}-LARA: -CREEK PERSON 1: 300 00:18:34,988 --> 00:18:37,616 {\an8}-LARA: -CREEK PERSON 1: 301 00:18:38,033 --> 00:18:41,703 {\an8}LARA: 302 00:18:43,705 --> 00:18:46,917 {\an8}CREEK PERSON 2: 303 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:49,878 {\an8}LARA: 304 00:18:49,962 --> 00:18:51,046 {\an8}CREEK PERSON 3: 305 00:18:51,130 --> 00:18:52,923 {\an8}LARA: 306 00:18:53,006 --> 00:18:54,716 {\an8}CREEK PERSON 3: 307 00:18:54,758 --> 00:18:57,386 {\an8}-LARA: -CREEK PERSON 3: 308 00:18:59,930 --> 00:19:03,225 Since we were able to kind of confirm 309 00:19:03,267 --> 00:19:06,562 the story Maurice told Polanco, 310 00:19:06,603 --> 00:19:09,857 we moved on to Forrest Welborn. 311 00:19:09,898 --> 00:19:12,234 LARA: I'll be back with you in about 15 minutes. 312 00:19:12,818 --> 00:19:14,111 (DOOR CREAKING) 313 00:19:14,194 --> 00:19:15,195 (FORREST GRUNTS) 314 00:19:18,282 --> 00:19:23,078 {\an8}LARA: 315 00:19:23,162 --> 00:19:24,246 {\an8}FORREST WELBORN: 316 00:19:24,288 --> 00:19:26,748 {\an8}LARA: 317 00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:30,919 {\an8}FORREST: 318 00:19:40,137 --> 00:19:41,263 {\an8}LARA: Okay. 319 00:19:46,268 --> 00:19:48,979 {\an8}-FORREST: -LARA: 320 00:19:49,062 --> 00:19:51,148 {\an8}FORREST: 321 00:19:56,361 --> 00:20:00,240 {\an8}-LARA: -FORREST: 322 00:20:03,952 --> 00:20:05,204 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 323 00:20:08,624 --> 00:20:10,292 {\an8}FORREST: 324 00:20:21,970 --> 00:20:23,847 {\an8}-(DOOR CREAKING) -(INDISTINCT CHATTER) 325 00:20:23,931 --> 00:20:26,475 {\an8}♪ (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 326 00:20:26,516 --> 00:20:29,519 {\an8}JOHNSON: I always hoped this case would be solved. 327 00:20:29,603 --> 00:20:32,689 {\an8}And sometimes you never know if it's going to be solved 328 00:20:32,773 --> 00:20:35,734 {\an8}until you actually solve it. 329 00:20:35,817 --> 00:20:38,820 {\an8}I never had the feeling we were on the right track 330 00:20:38,904 --> 00:20:42,199 {\an8}until after Michael Scott's first day of interview. 331 00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:51,667 {\an8}LARA: 332 00:20:54,962 --> 00:20:58,507 {\an8}MICHAEL SCOTT: 333 00:20:58,548 --> 00:21:00,509 {\an8}LARA: 334 00:21:00,550 --> 00:21:01,843 {\an8}-MICHAEL: Yeah. -LARA: 335 00:21:05,514 --> 00:21:07,599 {\an8}LARA: 336 00:21:07,683 --> 00:21:11,186 {\an8}MICHAEL: 337 00:21:11,270 --> 00:21:12,521 {\an8}LARA: 338 00:21:12,562 --> 00:21:19,069 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: Mm-hmm. 339 00:21:21,863 --> 00:21:25,784 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 340 00:21:25,867 --> 00:21:30,372 {\an8}MICHAEL: 341 00:21:31,164 --> 00:21:32,833 {\an8}(TAPE WHIRRING) 342 00:21:33,583 --> 00:21:36,753 {\an8}LARA: 343 00:21:38,714 --> 00:21:44,386 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 344 00:21:45,846 --> 00:21:52,144 {\an8}-LARA: -MICHAEL: 345 00:21:53,854 --> 00:21:59,609 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 346 00:22:00,027 --> 00:22:04,531 {\an8}MICHAEL: 347 00:22:09,911 --> 00:22:13,081 {\an8}-LARA: -MICHAEL: 348 00:22:13,165 --> 00:22:15,250 {\an8}JOHNSON: 349 00:22:19,629 --> 00:22:20,756 {\an8}MICHAEL: 350 00:22:21,465 --> 00:22:22,591 {\an8}LARA: 351 00:22:37,898 --> 00:22:40,776 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 352 00:22:44,112 --> 00:22:46,448 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 353 00:22:50,911 --> 00:22:55,123 {\an8}MICHAEL: 354 00:22:55,165 --> 00:22:57,834 {\an8}-LARA: -MICHAEL: 355 00:22:58,710 --> 00:23:03,548 {\an8}-LARA: -MICHAEL: 356 00:23:09,930 --> 00:23:13,350 {\an8}-LARA: -MICHAEL: 357 00:23:13,934 --> 00:23:17,771 {\an8}-LARA: -MICHAEL: Yes. 358 00:23:17,813 --> 00:23:22,317 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 359 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,570 {\an8}MICHAEL: 360 00:23:25,654 --> 00:23:28,156 {\an8}-JOHNSON: -LARA: 361 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,658 {\an8}MICHAEL: 362 00:23:32,202 --> 00:23:34,621 JOHNSON: As soon as we got the investigator 363 00:23:34,663 --> 00:23:37,332 starting to write up his confession, 364 00:23:37,416 --> 00:23:42,129 we sent some investigators to West Virginia 365 00:23:42,170 --> 00:23:44,840 to try to talk to Robert Springsteen. 366 00:23:46,550 --> 00:23:48,844 He had gone back to West Virginia 367 00:23:48,885 --> 00:23:50,971 like two or three weeks after the murders 368 00:23:51,012 --> 00:23:52,347 to live with his mother. 369 00:23:52,431 --> 00:23:53,640 So we went and talked to him 370 00:23:53,682 --> 00:23:55,475 at the local police department there. 371 00:23:55,517 --> 00:23:57,519 ♪ (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 372 00:24:01,690 --> 00:24:05,735 {\an8}LARA: 373 00:24:08,655 --> 00:24:09,865 {\an8}LARA: 374 00:24:17,622 --> 00:24:21,001 {\an8}LARA: 375 00:24:26,089 --> 00:24:29,176 {\an8}-ROB SPRINGSTEEN: -LARA: 376 00:24:57,662 --> 00:24:59,372 {\an8}LARA: 377 00:25:01,082 --> 00:25:02,626 {\an8}LARA: 378 00:25:05,253 --> 00:25:07,797 {\an8}LARA: 379 00:25:09,007 --> 00:25:10,300 {\an8}-ROBERT: -LARA: 380 00:25:10,383 --> 00:25:14,179 {\an8}-ROBERT: -LARA: 381 00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:16,723 {\an8}-ROBERT: -LARA: 382 00:25:16,765 --> 00:25:17,891 {\an8}(SIGHS) 383 00:25:42,582 --> 00:25:43,959 {\an8}You didn't. 384 00:26:31,214 --> 00:26:33,216 {\an8}♪ (GRIPPING MUSIC BUILDING) ♪ 385 00:26:58,783 --> 00:27:03,079 {\an8}MICHAEL: 386 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,527 {\an8}JOHNSON: All the interviews with Michael Scott 387 00:27:34,569 --> 00:27:37,364 {\an8}and the interview with Robert Springsteen 388 00:27:37,405 --> 00:27:41,117 were... voluntary interviews. 389 00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:42,744 They were free to leave at any time. 390 00:27:58,134 --> 00:28:01,096 {\an8}ROBERT: 391 00:28:06,059 --> 00:28:08,353 {\an8}MICHAEL: 392 00:28:09,104 --> 00:28:10,271 {\an8}LARA: 393 00:28:10,689 --> 00:28:13,274 {\an8}MICHAEL: 394 00:28:13,316 --> 00:28:15,068 {\an8}LARA: 395 00:28:17,070 --> 00:28:18,279 {\an8}LARA: 396 00:28:27,831 --> 00:28:31,209 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 397 00:28:34,379 --> 00:28:36,798 {\an8}MICHAEL: 398 00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:40,260 {\an8}-LARA: -MICHAEL: 399 00:28:42,220 --> 00:28:43,346 {\an8}LARA: 400 00:28:44,472 --> 00:28:45,807 {\an8}ROBERT: 401 00:28:46,307 --> 00:28:48,351 {\an8}LARA: 402 00:28:50,770 --> 00:28:51,938 {\an8}ROBERT: 403 00:28:53,898 --> 00:28:55,984 {\an8}MICHAEL: 404 00:28:56,025 --> 00:28:58,862 {\an8}LARA: 405 00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:13,668 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 406 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:17,213 REPORTER 1: The Austin Police Department 407 00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:19,257 and the Travis County DA's office 408 00:29:19,340 --> 00:29:21,634 say their investigation has ended 409 00:29:21,676 --> 00:29:23,052 in sweet success. 410 00:29:23,136 --> 00:29:24,512 DICK ELLIS: Now, after nearly eight years, 411 00:29:24,596 --> 00:29:26,097 police have arrested four suspects. 412 00:29:26,181 --> 00:29:28,391 These are the words thousands here in Austin 413 00:29:28,475 --> 00:29:31,686 have been waiting to hear for nearly eight years. 414 00:29:31,728 --> 00:29:37,108 {\an8}On December 6, 1991, we as a city lost our innocence. 415 00:29:37,192 --> 00:29:40,028 Today, as a community, we can hopefully 416 00:29:40,111 --> 00:29:43,531 finally begin the process of healing. 417 00:29:43,573 --> 00:29:47,702 {\an8}I have to tell you that I am extremely proud... 418 00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:51,206 {\an8}of the members of this police department. 419 00:29:51,247 --> 00:29:56,544 {\an8}These arrests culminate nearly eight years of hard work, 420 00:29:56,586 --> 00:29:57,962 {\an8}but it's an effort that won't end 421 00:29:58,046 --> 00:30:00,715 {\an8}until the jury comes back with the guilty verdict. 422 00:30:01,424 --> 00:30:03,218 ♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 423 00:30:03,301 --> 00:30:05,053 BARBARA AYRES-WILSON: This is not the end of what 424 00:30:05,136 --> 00:30:07,722 we have been trying to do, but only the beginning. 425 00:30:07,764 --> 00:30:12,060 {\an8}It is also important that these four people 426 00:30:12,101 --> 00:30:18,233 {\an8}are allowed to have a fair and good trial. 427 00:30:19,234 --> 00:30:20,693 {\an8}PAM AYERS: We've all talked about it. 428 00:30:20,735 --> 00:30:22,111 {\an8}We felt like our lives were just now 429 00:30:22,195 --> 00:30:26,074 {\an8}beginning to get back to a somewhat normal state, 430 00:30:26,157 --> 00:30:28,243 not like it was for so many years. 431 00:30:28,326 --> 00:30:30,578 But, uh, now it's going to start all over again. 432 00:30:30,620 --> 00:30:33,039 It's-- We're going to start December 6, '91, 433 00:30:33,081 --> 00:30:34,165 all over again. 434 00:30:37,293 --> 00:30:39,254 MIKE HUCKABAY: If you could stop time 435 00:30:39,295 --> 00:30:40,922 and get back to basics... 436 00:30:41,881 --> 00:30:44,551 {\an8}right after those girls were killed... 437 00:30:47,470 --> 00:30:50,557 we come up with suspects, the four guys. 438 00:30:51,891 --> 00:30:54,435 I go right back. I go right back. 439 00:30:55,311 --> 00:30:57,230 Those guys that we got... 440 00:30:59,232 --> 00:31:00,984 they did it. They did it. 441 00:31:02,443 --> 00:31:05,613 {\an8}It sounded good. I mean, I dug the shirt out. 442 00:31:05,697 --> 00:31:08,199 {\an8}All right. And then Huck and I were talking. 443 00:31:08,283 --> 00:31:10,076 He goes, "Well, all I got is a confession." 444 00:31:10,118 --> 00:31:12,412 I go, "That's it?" 445 00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:15,957 "Yeah. From just two of 'em." 446 00:31:17,333 --> 00:31:21,462 It's a confession. That's... that's like a two-legged stool. 447 00:31:21,546 --> 00:31:23,840 It ain't going to stand. You need that third leg. 448 00:31:23,923 --> 00:31:25,174 {\an8}MARGARET: 449 00:31:25,717 --> 00:31:26,968 Evidence. 450 00:31:29,596 --> 00:31:32,473 ERIN MORIARTY: After eight years and no physical evidence 451 00:31:32,515 --> 00:31:35,643 to tie any of the four men to the murders, 452 00:31:35,685 --> 00:31:38,813 why did the Austin police focus on them? 453 00:31:38,897 --> 00:31:42,358 As adults, all four have led quiet lives 454 00:31:42,442 --> 00:31:44,152 with jobs and families. 455 00:31:45,069 --> 00:31:46,696 Maurice Pierce's sister. 456 00:31:46,779 --> 00:31:48,239 {\an8}It's hard to talk about this, isn't it? 457 00:31:48,323 --> 00:31:49,657 {\an8}-Mm-hmm. -ERIN: Why? Tell me. 458 00:31:49,699 --> 00:31:50,992 {\an8}(SNIFFLES) 459 00:31:51,075 --> 00:31:53,286 {\an8}Because they've taken his life away. 460 00:31:53,328 --> 00:31:55,330 ROBIN MOSS: Sometimes I think about the death penalty 461 00:31:55,413 --> 00:31:56,915 {\an8}and what-- I can't believe-- 462 00:31:56,998 --> 00:31:59,334 {\an8}I won't let myself believe he could possibly be convicted. 463 00:32:00,710 --> 00:32:02,086 ERIN: How long have you been here now? 464 00:32:02,170 --> 00:32:03,796 Two months. 465 00:32:03,838 --> 00:32:05,924 Did you ever think you'd be in here? 466 00:32:07,008 --> 00:32:08,009 No. 467 00:32:09,385 --> 00:32:13,181 The only thing we ever had on Forrest was a party 468 00:32:13,264 --> 00:32:14,807 to an aggravated robbery. 469 00:32:14,849 --> 00:32:18,353 We didn't have a case to even suspect 470 00:32:18,394 --> 00:32:21,731 that he had an intention to be a party to a murder. 471 00:32:21,814 --> 00:32:23,900 {\an8}MICHAEL: 472 00:32:27,695 --> 00:32:29,405 ERIN: In a surprise move... 473 00:32:29,489 --> 00:32:30,490 REPORTER 2: Any comment, Forrest? 474 00:32:30,531 --> 00:32:33,326 ERIN: ...the judge lets Forrest go home on bail. 475 00:32:36,871 --> 00:32:38,039 SPEAKER: It's okay. 476 00:32:40,166 --> 00:32:44,420 Trying not to get too excited about not getting indicted 477 00:32:44,504 --> 00:32:45,630 because I never know 478 00:32:45,713 --> 00:32:47,465 what's going to happen in the future. 479 00:32:49,384 --> 00:32:51,177 ERIN: Forrest Welborn was offered a deal, 480 00:32:51,219 --> 00:32:53,304 and they would have left him alone 481 00:32:53,388 --> 00:32:56,140 {\an8}if he would testify against the other three guys. 482 00:32:56,224 --> 00:32:58,267 {\an8}And he said, "No, I'm not going to." 483 00:32:58,351 --> 00:33:00,853 {\an8}You know, "I'm not going to lie." That's what he goes. 484 00:33:00,895 --> 00:33:03,064 "I'm not going to lie about something like that." 485 00:33:03,147 --> 00:33:04,649 {\an8}ERIN: A grand jury indicts 486 00:33:04,732 --> 00:33:07,402 {\an8}Robert Springsteen, Michael Scott, 487 00:33:07,443 --> 00:33:08,987 {\an8}and Maurice Pierce. 488 00:33:09,070 --> 00:33:12,699 {\an8}All three will be tried for first degree murder. 489 00:33:12,740 --> 00:33:15,410 If convicted, Springsteen and Scott 490 00:33:15,451 --> 00:33:17,578 face the death penalty. 491 00:33:17,620 --> 00:33:18,871 STAFF MEMBER: My understanding is 492 00:33:18,913 --> 00:33:20,915 that you all have contacted your own attorney. 493 00:33:20,957 --> 00:33:22,000 Is that correct? 494 00:33:22,959 --> 00:33:24,085 That's correct. 495 00:33:24,752 --> 00:33:26,295 JOE: With a death penalty case, 496 00:33:26,379 --> 00:33:29,465 there is always the tremendous burden 497 00:33:29,549 --> 00:33:35,763 {\an8}because a great deal depends on your representation. 498 00:33:35,847 --> 00:33:37,265 Will he live? Will he die? 499 00:33:37,306 --> 00:33:39,559 Will you do the job right? Will you make a mistake? 500 00:33:40,393 --> 00:33:41,769 And with Robert, 501 00:33:41,853 --> 00:33:43,938 because of the nature of his confession, 502 00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:45,273 the statements he makes, 503 00:33:45,314 --> 00:33:50,486 I had real doubt as to whether we could ever push 504 00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:52,613 for a finding of not guilty... 505 00:33:52,655 --> 00:33:54,907 {\an8}-APD OFFICER: -(ROBERT SPEAKS INDISTINCTLY) 506 00:33:54,949 --> 00:33:56,075 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 507 00:33:56,117 --> 00:33:58,953 {\an8}ROBERT: 508 00:34:00,038 --> 00:34:03,249 JOE: ...when it's the words of the accused himself 509 00:34:03,291 --> 00:34:05,960 saying, "I did this." 510 00:34:06,002 --> 00:34:08,671 And he's saying it into a video camera. 511 00:34:09,589 --> 00:34:12,133 But I want you to, just for a moment, 512 00:34:12,175 --> 00:34:14,719 imagine the stress he was under 513 00:34:14,802 --> 00:34:16,846 when he was making that statement. 514 00:34:16,929 --> 00:34:19,348 The fear, the uncertainty, 515 00:34:19,432 --> 00:34:20,516 the suddenness, 516 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,644 all contributed to Springsteen's statement. 517 00:34:25,104 --> 00:34:29,233 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 518 00:34:29,734 --> 00:34:34,155 {\an8}ROBERT: 519 00:34:36,324 --> 00:34:38,618 ♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪ 520 00:34:38,659 --> 00:34:41,204 CARLOS GARCIA: I've always tried to be very detached 521 00:34:41,287 --> 00:34:43,998 {\an8}so that when I would get a case in front of me, 522 00:34:44,082 --> 00:34:47,668 {\an8}I try and strip away any emotion and anything like that. 523 00:34:47,710 --> 00:34:49,212 I mean, our job is to just study-- 524 00:34:49,295 --> 00:34:50,713 figure out what the facts are. 525 00:34:51,589 --> 00:34:54,050 With Michael, what I started with 526 00:34:54,133 --> 00:34:57,678 was his written confession. 527 00:34:57,762 --> 00:35:00,598 I started to read it, and I remember getting 528 00:35:00,681 --> 00:35:02,850 maybe to about page three or four, 529 00:35:02,934 --> 00:35:05,353 and it was too much for me. 530 00:35:05,394 --> 00:35:09,065 {\an8}It was overwhelming to read this horrific detail 531 00:35:09,148 --> 00:35:11,567 {\an8}of raping these girls and killing them. 532 00:35:11,651 --> 00:35:14,195 {\an8}I couldn't read it objectively. 533 00:35:14,278 --> 00:35:16,155 My biased viewpoint at the time was 534 00:35:16,197 --> 00:35:18,533 people don't confess to something they did not do. 535 00:35:18,616 --> 00:35:19,784 I had to put that aside 536 00:35:19,867 --> 00:35:22,829 just to objectively review this case. 537 00:35:22,870 --> 00:35:24,872 So I put it away for about a month. 538 00:35:24,956 --> 00:35:26,499 I mean, I learned everything I could 539 00:35:26,541 --> 00:35:27,583 about the crime scenes. 540 00:35:28,334 --> 00:35:29,710 I come back to it. 541 00:35:29,794 --> 00:35:30,878 As I started to read it, 542 00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:32,505 it was like, "Okay, wait a minute. 543 00:35:32,547 --> 00:35:34,549 That didn't happen. That didn't happen. 544 00:35:34,590 --> 00:35:36,300 That's totally inaccurate. 545 00:35:36,384 --> 00:35:39,387 Why is he getting so many things wrong?" 546 00:35:39,428 --> 00:35:42,807 This confession clearly does not match this crime scene. 547 00:35:45,476 --> 00:35:49,438 Interrogation practice, there's a book. I have them all. 548 00:35:49,522 --> 00:35:52,191 So this is Criminal Interrogations and Confessions, 549 00:35:52,233 --> 00:35:53,568 fourth edition. 550 00:35:53,609 --> 00:35:56,237 {\an8}This is considered the bible of interrogation practice 551 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,405 {\an8}in the United States. 552 00:36:00,491 --> 00:36:04,328 Through extended research and years of experience, John Reed and Associates 553 00:36:04,412 --> 00:36:07,415 has developed a nine-step interrogation process. 554 00:36:09,125 --> 00:36:14,255 These guys are criticized by social psychologists, 555 00:36:14,964 --> 00:36:16,340 because they're saying, 556 00:36:16,424 --> 00:36:19,093 "Look, the method that they're teaching in here 557 00:36:19,177 --> 00:36:20,928 can lead to false confessions." 558 00:36:21,804 --> 00:36:23,806 Step number two and step number seven 559 00:36:23,890 --> 00:36:26,976 are the most essential steps of the interrogation process. 560 00:36:27,059 --> 00:36:30,188 Give the suspect psychological justification 561 00:36:30,271 --> 00:36:31,814 for committing the crime. 562 00:36:31,898 --> 00:36:35,318 Suggest to the suspect a good reason and a bad reason 563 00:36:35,401 --> 00:36:37,028 {\an8}so that we make it easy for them 564 00:36:37,111 --> 00:36:39,447 {\an8}to make that first admission of guilt. 565 00:36:39,530 --> 00:36:41,699 CARLOS: Michael's biggest problem was 566 00:36:41,782 --> 00:36:43,618 he trusted the police. 567 00:36:43,659 --> 00:36:45,536 {\an8}MICHAEL: 568 00:36:49,749 --> 00:36:51,751 {\an8}LARA: 569 00:36:51,792 --> 00:36:53,461 {\an8}MICHAEL: 570 00:36:53,544 --> 00:36:55,671 CARLOS: He says, "Guys, either I don't remember 571 00:36:55,755 --> 00:36:57,548 or two, I'm lying." 572 00:36:58,716 --> 00:37:01,969 Well, there was a third option. What's the third option? 573 00:37:02,011 --> 00:37:02,970 {\an8}MARGARET: 574 00:37:03,054 --> 00:37:04,305 {\an8}Yes. 575 00:37:04,388 --> 00:37:05,640 But he didn't consider it 576 00:37:05,723 --> 00:37:07,642 because he doesn't believe they lie. 577 00:37:07,683 --> 00:37:09,060 Even Springsteen said, 578 00:37:09,143 --> 00:37:11,979 "Guys, I could've sworn I went to Rocky Horror Picture Show." 579 00:37:20,821 --> 00:37:22,240 "Well, I guess I was wrong." 580 00:37:22,323 --> 00:37:24,867 "No, actually you weren't. You were right. 581 00:37:24,951 --> 00:37:26,452 They lied to you." 582 00:37:26,494 --> 00:37:30,331 Which is what this guy say it's okay to do, is to lie. 583 00:37:30,373 --> 00:37:32,208 That's the problem with this method. 584 00:37:32,917 --> 00:37:34,543 The police are using techniques 585 00:37:34,627 --> 00:37:36,712 they have no idea how powerful they are. 586 00:37:36,796 --> 00:37:39,674 Because if you've got a subject that believes you 587 00:37:39,757 --> 00:37:43,219 when you lie to them-- "You're the authority figure. 588 00:37:43,302 --> 00:37:44,512 I believe you're telling me the truth. 589 00:37:44,595 --> 00:37:45,805 Why would you lie to me?" 590 00:37:45,846 --> 00:37:47,640 That is what happened to Michael Scott, 591 00:37:47,682 --> 00:37:49,350 but that's not all. 592 00:37:49,433 --> 00:37:51,686 {\an8}Reed would say they used some tactics from us, 593 00:37:51,727 --> 00:37:53,813 {\an8}but they did all the stuff we told them not to do. 594 00:37:53,854 --> 00:37:56,691 {\an8}-ROBERT MERRILL: -MICHAEL: I don't-- 595 00:37:56,774 --> 00:37:58,776 {\an8}MERRILL: 596 00:38:00,361 --> 00:38:01,445 {\an8}CARLOS: Aside from the nine steps, 597 00:38:01,529 --> 00:38:03,072 there's a couple of things it says. 598 00:38:03,155 --> 00:38:05,700 It says, "Don't do these things, because if you do these things, 599 00:38:05,741 --> 00:38:08,160 {\an8}that could lead to a false confession. 600 00:38:08,202 --> 00:38:10,538 You cannot threaten people. 601 00:38:10,579 --> 00:38:12,290 Don't promise anything to people. 602 00:38:12,373 --> 00:38:15,835 Do not feed false theories of memory." 603 00:38:17,878 --> 00:38:19,547 First of all, you have to understand 604 00:38:19,588 --> 00:38:21,382 about how memory works. 605 00:38:21,424 --> 00:38:23,718 SHOMER: Memory abhors gaps. 606 00:38:23,801 --> 00:38:26,262 {\an8}You don't want an incomplete puzzle. 607 00:38:26,345 --> 00:38:29,432 {\an8}So basically from inferences, from assumptions, 608 00:38:29,515 --> 00:38:31,142 {\an8}from incorporation of information 609 00:38:31,225 --> 00:38:32,184 {\an8}from other people, 610 00:38:32,226 --> 00:38:34,729 which you've come to believe is reasonable, 611 00:38:34,770 --> 00:38:36,814 these pieces are literally created 612 00:38:36,897 --> 00:38:38,190 and they fill in the gaps. 613 00:38:39,817 --> 00:38:41,360 CARLOS: So, for example, they tell him, 614 00:38:41,402 --> 00:38:43,195 "There's something in your mind, Michael, 615 00:38:43,237 --> 00:38:44,697 that's called revivification." 616 00:38:45,406 --> 00:38:48,868 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 617 00:38:52,371 --> 00:38:54,749 CARLOS: You can replay it if you want to. 618 00:38:56,083 --> 00:38:58,044 We can extract it from your mind. 619 00:38:58,085 --> 00:39:01,505 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 620 00:39:01,589 --> 00:39:04,300 {\an8}He believes it, so it becomes this exercise 621 00:39:04,383 --> 00:39:07,303 in trying to extract memories that he believes he has. 622 00:39:07,386 --> 00:39:08,971 "Hey, Michael, you were telling me that you thought 623 00:39:09,055 --> 00:39:10,890 the girls might have been tied up." 624 00:39:10,931 --> 00:39:13,059 "You thought." The key word is "thought." 625 00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:16,437 {\an8}The jump from "you think they were tied up" to... 626 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:18,689 {\an8}LARA: 627 00:39:18,773 --> 00:39:23,819 It's a very subtle suggestion, but it's there nonetheless. 628 00:39:23,903 --> 00:39:26,947 And so Mike starts to say, "Yeah, I think maybe shoelaces." 629 00:39:26,989 --> 00:39:28,783 "Oh, come on, Mike, you know it wasn't shoelaces. 630 00:39:28,866 --> 00:39:30,117 Come on, what was it?" 631 00:39:30,201 --> 00:39:36,957 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 632 00:39:36,999 --> 00:39:39,335 {\an8}-LARA -MICHAEL: 633 00:39:39,418 --> 00:39:42,463 He finally hits on one-- one the one that it was correct. 634 00:39:42,546 --> 00:39:44,423 "There you go, Mike. There you go." 635 00:39:44,715 --> 00:39:46,258 {\an8}MICHAEL: 636 00:39:46,300 --> 00:39:48,469 {\an8}LARA: 637 00:39:51,972 --> 00:39:53,140 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -LARA: 638 00:39:53,224 --> 00:39:54,850 CARLOS: And so what happens? 639 00:39:54,934 --> 00:39:56,894 He starts to commingle these memories. 640 00:39:58,187 --> 00:40:00,689 Now the mind does not know which is false and what is not. 641 00:40:02,483 --> 00:40:03,818 And that's the problem. 642 00:40:04,777 --> 00:40:07,238 That's how you create false memories. 643 00:40:08,489 --> 00:40:10,366 That could lead to a false confession. 644 00:40:11,409 --> 00:40:12,827 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 645 00:40:15,329 --> 00:40:16,956 REPORTER: Good evening. Thanks for joining us. 646 00:40:16,997 --> 00:40:18,833 Robert Springsteen's capital murder trial 647 00:40:18,916 --> 00:40:20,042 is underway. 648 00:40:20,126 --> 00:40:22,086 {\an8}Evidence was introduced today in court. 649 00:40:22,169 --> 00:40:23,838 {\an8}There was a ring that one of the girls 650 00:40:23,921 --> 00:40:25,881 {\an8}was wearing, as well as a belt buckle. 651 00:40:25,965 --> 00:40:27,758 The most difficult thing to see was 652 00:40:27,842 --> 00:40:29,677 a crime scene photo of Amy Ayers. 653 00:40:29,718 --> 00:40:32,555 It showed her lying face down inside the yogurt shop. 654 00:40:32,638 --> 00:40:33,889 Family members looked away. 655 00:40:33,973 --> 00:40:35,015 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 656 00:40:35,099 --> 00:40:36,725 BOB AYERS: DA's office was telling us, 657 00:40:36,809 --> 00:40:38,352 "Well, on such and such day, 658 00:40:38,394 --> 00:40:40,312 they're going to show them crime scene photos." 659 00:40:40,354 --> 00:40:42,731 And we just told him, "We're going to be there." 660 00:40:42,815 --> 00:40:45,192 Usually, protocol is the parents aren't there. 661 00:40:45,276 --> 00:40:46,694 I said, "Well, we will be." 662 00:40:46,735 --> 00:40:48,654 {\an8}There was 14 people on the jury. 663 00:40:50,281 --> 00:40:51,740 {\an8}If they got to sit there and take it, 664 00:40:51,824 --> 00:40:53,409 well, I just figured we could too. 665 00:40:55,327 --> 00:40:56,996 {\an8}Not only did they strangle her, 666 00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:01,292 {\an8}they pistol-whipped her and they shot her twice. 667 00:41:04,378 --> 00:41:07,381 That is a cold, cold person. 668 00:41:08,424 --> 00:41:10,050 They could do that to a kid, 669 00:41:10,134 --> 00:41:11,594 and they feel like part of that 670 00:41:11,677 --> 00:41:13,804 is because Amy was trying to get away. 671 00:41:15,806 --> 00:41:18,058 So then the thing is, was she first? 672 00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:19,143 Was she last? 673 00:41:19,226 --> 00:41:22,521 I mean, you know, all of that runs through your mind. 674 00:41:22,563 --> 00:41:26,066 And I know worse things happen to people... 675 00:41:27,693 --> 00:41:28,861 but they're not mine. 676 00:41:31,071 --> 00:41:33,574 ♪ (SOMBER MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪ 677 00:41:36,452 --> 00:41:38,412 SONORA THOMAS: I did go to the trials. 678 00:41:38,454 --> 00:41:40,247 {\an8}It was just a very strange experience 679 00:41:40,331 --> 00:41:41,832 {\an8}'cause I remember looking and thinking like, 680 00:41:41,916 --> 00:41:44,168 {\an8}"That just looks like a person." 681 00:41:44,251 --> 00:41:45,753 You know, you have this image that, 682 00:41:45,836 --> 00:41:48,714 like, somebody with horns is going to walk in. 683 00:41:48,756 --> 00:41:52,218 {\an8}And instead, this-- this sort of homely-looking person walks in. 684 00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:56,680 BOB: I looked at him and he looked at me 685 00:41:56,764 --> 00:41:59,099 and there was nothing there. It was ice. 686 00:41:59,141 --> 00:42:00,267 It was clear. 687 00:42:00,309 --> 00:42:03,354 I'm telling you, his eyes were like ice. 688 00:42:04,146 --> 00:42:07,107 And I just, I got-- I had chills. 689 00:42:07,149 --> 00:42:08,943 And that's the first time I saw the evil. 690 00:42:12,112 --> 00:42:14,073 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 691 00:42:14,114 --> 00:42:16,325 {\an8}MIKE LYNCH: I'm going to be reading from a journal 692 00:42:16,408 --> 00:42:19,286 {\an8}I kept during this capital murder trial. 693 00:42:19,328 --> 00:42:22,164 {\an8}I guess I kept it because I kind of wanted 694 00:42:23,541 --> 00:42:25,417 some sort of history. 695 00:42:25,459 --> 00:42:28,546 But more than that, it was kind of therapeutic. 696 00:42:31,715 --> 00:42:33,968 "The yogurt shop case has created a level 697 00:42:34,009 --> 00:42:36,136 of tension and scrutiny, 698 00:42:36,220 --> 00:42:39,473 extreme even for a death penalty case." 699 00:42:39,515 --> 00:42:41,058 {\an8}There's gonna be graphic evidence. 700 00:42:41,141 --> 00:42:42,726 {\an8}It's gonna be stuff that you don't wanna hear. 701 00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:45,271 {\an8}There's gonna be things you don't want to look at. 702 00:42:45,312 --> 00:42:49,775 {\an8}There is not a shred of physical evidence 703 00:42:49,817 --> 00:42:52,903 {\an8}to connect Mr. Springsteen to have commissioned this crime. 704 00:42:53,946 --> 00:42:57,324 The only evidence that was even close to saying, 705 00:42:57,408 --> 00:42:59,034 "Well, maybe Michael did something," 706 00:42:59,118 --> 00:43:00,661 was one witness who came in saying, 707 00:43:00,703 --> 00:43:03,122 "Yeah, he said words to the effect of 'I did it.'" 708 00:43:04,707 --> 00:43:06,375 BARBARA: One of the days of going to court, 709 00:43:06,458 --> 00:43:07,668 there was this young woman. 710 00:43:07,710 --> 00:43:10,838 {\an8}She had a big tattoo from shoulder to shoulder 711 00:43:10,921 --> 00:43:13,507 {\an8}and a strapless top on. 712 00:43:13,591 --> 00:43:15,384 I was like, "Who is this girl?" 713 00:43:19,054 --> 00:43:23,142 {\an8}Mike Scott's friend had been this 13-year-old 714 00:43:23,183 --> 00:43:28,731 {\an8}kind of punk rock kid back in 1991, and she testified. 715 00:43:30,566 --> 00:43:33,694 {\an8}The way I remember it is Michael was pacing around 716 00:43:33,736 --> 00:43:36,572 our living room and, you know, I was like, 717 00:43:36,655 --> 00:43:38,949 "Dude, you can talk to me, like, I'm-- I'm your friend." 718 00:43:39,033 --> 00:43:40,993 And we're both staring out into the yard. 719 00:43:43,037 --> 00:43:44,330 He goes, "I did it." 720 00:43:45,539 --> 00:43:48,709 {\an8}LARA: 721 00:43:55,549 --> 00:43:58,552 {\an8}AMANDA: 722 00:44:31,168 --> 00:44:33,337 MIKE HALL: She said that Mike said to her, 723 00:44:33,420 --> 00:44:34,922 "We raped 'em and we killed 'em, 724 00:44:34,963 --> 00:44:37,424 blah, blah, blah, and it was just crazy, 725 00:44:37,508 --> 00:44:38,592 blah, blah, blah." 726 00:44:38,634 --> 00:44:41,595 She was a little, I would call, on the fringes. 727 00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:45,140 But when she spoke on-- on the stand, 728 00:44:45,224 --> 00:44:46,350 she was articulate. 729 00:44:47,851 --> 00:44:51,438 He confessed to her. That's powerful. 730 00:44:51,522 --> 00:44:54,441 CARLOS: This is one girl eight years after the fact, 731 00:44:54,525 --> 00:44:57,403 and they didn't have anything to match up. 732 00:44:57,444 --> 00:45:00,239 What's the detail? "Did it." What do you mean? 733 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,075 "Oh, he said he did it." That... that's not much. 734 00:45:04,284 --> 00:45:06,954 {\an8}If you look at the evidence against these men, 735 00:45:07,037 --> 00:45:09,957 {\an8}the prosecution really didn't have anything. 736 00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:13,460 {\an8}♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 737 00:45:16,839 --> 00:45:19,466 "The defense attempted to introduce expert testimony 738 00:45:19,508 --> 00:45:23,887 from a memory expert concerning how memory works and how persuasion 739 00:45:23,971 --> 00:45:26,014 and suggestion under some circumstances 740 00:45:26,098 --> 00:45:27,474 can get people to remember things 741 00:45:27,558 --> 00:45:29,268 they didn't actually experience. 742 00:45:30,769 --> 00:45:32,479 The defense wanted the jury to hear 743 00:45:32,521 --> 00:45:34,732 how a reasonably normal person could be convinced 744 00:45:34,815 --> 00:45:36,608 {\an8}through regular police interrogation 745 00:45:36,650 --> 00:45:38,986 {\an8}that he had committed a horrific act 746 00:45:39,027 --> 00:45:41,822 {\an8}despite being absolutely innocent. 747 00:45:41,905 --> 00:45:45,159 However, the memory expert wanted to testify 748 00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,703 to more than I thought the law allowed." 749 00:45:47,786 --> 00:45:52,332 So I tried to find a point where he could be helpful 750 00:45:52,374 --> 00:45:55,627 without going over the line. 751 00:45:55,669 --> 00:45:58,464 I think, maybe, I felt like I wanted to give him more 752 00:45:58,505 --> 00:46:02,092 but shouldn't under the law. So, I guess that bothered me. 753 00:46:03,594 --> 00:46:05,053 ROBERT: How do you know it's a true confession 754 00:46:05,137 --> 00:46:06,305 or a false confession? 755 00:46:06,346 --> 00:46:08,348 {\an8}You don't. That's why we have juries. 756 00:46:08,432 --> 00:46:10,100 {\an8}And juries have to make that judgment. 757 00:46:10,184 --> 00:46:13,771 {\an8}But juries should know how these things work. 758 00:46:13,854 --> 00:46:16,064 They should know that there are certain techniques, 759 00:46:16,148 --> 00:46:18,358 certain procedures that the police use 760 00:46:18,442 --> 00:46:21,779 that increase the probability of false confessions. 761 00:46:21,862 --> 00:46:22,988 They should know that. 762 00:46:26,492 --> 00:46:28,160 {\an8}MICHAEL: I did think for a while 763 00:46:28,202 --> 00:46:30,078 {\an8}that I had something to do with this crime. 764 00:46:31,580 --> 00:46:35,209 It's weird, 'cause even now, y-- one still questions himself, 765 00:46:35,292 --> 00:46:36,919 "Did I have something to do with it?" 766 00:46:37,002 --> 00:46:38,045 (GRUNTS) 767 00:46:38,837 --> 00:46:40,714 They really screwed me over. 768 00:46:40,798 --> 00:46:43,801 {\an8}The approach that I was taking from the beginning 769 00:46:43,884 --> 00:46:48,555 {\an8}with this false confession idea is that Mike was someone 770 00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:50,724 who became convinced 771 00:46:50,808 --> 00:46:53,894 that he had murdered these girls. 772 00:46:53,936 --> 00:46:58,106 We talked to some experts who... who said this is-- 773 00:46:58,190 --> 00:47:00,400 This yo-- This case with Michael Scott 774 00:47:00,484 --> 00:47:02,110 is one of those cases 775 00:47:02,194 --> 00:47:04,571 that will keep you up at night. 776 00:47:04,613 --> 00:47:10,077 Um, because, uh, that is not how these interrogation techniques 777 00:47:10,118 --> 00:47:11,703 should work, but they are powerful 778 00:47:11,745 --> 00:47:14,748 and they do elicit results like this. 779 00:47:14,790 --> 00:47:17,751 They also elicit a less interesting, 780 00:47:17,793 --> 00:47:21,088 less psychologically interesting result, 781 00:47:21,129 --> 00:47:23,590 which is that you will also get another kind 782 00:47:23,632 --> 00:47:24,925 of false confession, 783 00:47:25,008 --> 00:47:27,845 and that's just the confession to get the hell out of the room. 784 00:47:28,846 --> 00:47:31,265 {\an8}♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪ 785 00:47:31,306 --> 00:47:33,892 {\an8}ROBERT: Needless to say, I wouldn't ever do it again. 786 00:47:34,601 --> 00:47:35,644 It was a really, 787 00:47:35,727 --> 00:47:38,105 absolutely jackass, stupid thing to do, 788 00:47:38,146 --> 00:47:40,274 but it was the only thing that I could think of 789 00:47:40,315 --> 00:47:41,942 to do at that time. 790 00:47:42,025 --> 00:47:43,610 The thing that kept 791 00:47:43,652 --> 00:47:45,445 effectively running through my head was, 792 00:47:45,487 --> 00:47:47,281 "Okay, these guys have got something 793 00:47:47,364 --> 00:47:48,866 really screwed up somewhere. 794 00:47:50,033 --> 00:47:51,618 I've got to get out of this room. 795 00:47:51,660 --> 00:47:55,122 I've got to get to an attorney. I've got to talk to an attorney 796 00:47:55,163 --> 00:47:56,999 and get all this stuff straightened out." 797 00:47:57,082 --> 00:47:58,625 They kept telling me I could leave, 798 00:47:58,667 --> 00:48:00,335 but they were sitting in front of the door. 799 00:48:07,593 --> 00:48:10,637 {\an8}ROBERT: 800 00:48:16,518 --> 00:48:18,478 JOHNSON: When that has been brought up, 801 00:48:18,562 --> 00:48:21,440 that the confessions were coerced, 802 00:48:21,481 --> 00:48:22,816 so they're not true. 803 00:48:22,858 --> 00:48:28,155 That's not how I authenticate a confession. 804 00:48:28,196 --> 00:48:29,990 {\an8}What determines if the confession is true 805 00:48:30,073 --> 00:48:31,825 {\an8}is that they reveal some information 806 00:48:31,867 --> 00:48:34,328 {\an8}that they would not have known otherwise 807 00:48:34,369 --> 00:48:36,079 {\an8}and there was no other way 808 00:48:36,163 --> 00:48:37,998 for them to find out that information. 809 00:48:40,042 --> 00:48:42,419 {\an8}LARA: 810 00:48:48,133 --> 00:48:49,843 {\an8}LARA: 811 00:48:53,889 --> 00:48:57,684 JOHNSON: He indicated the position of Amy's body. 812 00:48:57,726 --> 00:49:01,647 Body position has never been out to anyone anywhere, 813 00:49:01,688 --> 00:49:05,609 and nobody knows that unless they were there. 814 00:49:07,444 --> 00:49:11,865 You couldn't even describe it to somebody else to act out. 815 00:49:11,907 --> 00:49:17,120 In addition to that, each confession confirms things 816 00:49:17,204 --> 00:49:18,455 from the other's confession. 817 00:49:19,581 --> 00:49:20,916 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 818 00:49:25,712 --> 00:49:26,880 {\an8}MICHAEL: 819 00:49:26,922 --> 00:49:29,257 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 820 00:49:31,385 --> 00:49:33,679 {\an8}-MICHAEL: -APD OFFICER: 821 00:49:34,179 --> 00:49:36,056 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 822 00:49:40,060 --> 00:49:42,729 {\an8}APD OFFICER:: 823 00:49:45,148 --> 00:49:47,651 {\an8}-APD OFFICER:: -ROBERT: 824 00:49:48,402 --> 00:49:50,404 ♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC CONTINUES) ♪ 825 00:49:59,955 --> 00:50:02,249 JOHNSON: Okay, this is nothing like it used to be. 826 00:50:02,290 --> 00:50:06,211 So this is the area, just inside the back door, 827 00:50:07,212 --> 00:50:12,926 where there's shelves... and... the bodies 828 00:50:12,968 --> 00:50:14,928 were kind of right next to the shelves. 829 00:50:15,012 --> 00:50:18,265 This wall wasn't here. You know, all this has completely changed. 830 00:50:22,185 --> 00:50:26,231 {\an8}MICHAEL: 831 00:50:31,570 --> 00:50:33,238 {\an8}LARA: 832 00:50:34,698 --> 00:50:35,991 {\an8}MICHAEL: 833 00:50:38,660 --> 00:50:40,912 {\an8}CARLOS: But that's not how the fire started. 834 00:50:43,248 --> 00:50:45,125 {\an8}The fire did not start on these bodies. 835 00:50:45,167 --> 00:50:47,711 {\an8}That would have been practically impossible. 836 00:50:47,794 --> 00:50:50,547 What APD knew in 1991 837 00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:53,717 was that this fire started on the shelves. 838 00:50:55,343 --> 00:50:57,846 Fire makes patterns when it burns. 839 00:50:57,929 --> 00:51:00,223 So there's something called a V pattern. 840 00:51:00,307 --> 00:51:02,517 Looks like that. So the fire burns here. 841 00:51:02,601 --> 00:51:05,812 If it's next to a wall, you'll see a big old V. 842 00:51:05,854 --> 00:51:08,565 And so this V pattern is on the wall of this freezer 843 00:51:08,648 --> 00:51:09,983 and on this sidewall. 844 00:51:12,110 --> 00:51:14,988 The fire investigator had told them back in 1991. 845 00:51:15,072 --> 00:51:17,532 The fire started in the shel-- on the shelves. 846 00:51:18,241 --> 00:51:22,412 {\an8}LARA: 847 00:51:23,872 --> 00:51:26,333 {\an8}CARLOS: Now, after all this interrogation, 848 00:51:26,416 --> 00:51:29,419 {\an8}Michael Scott makes the fire start on the girls. 849 00:51:29,503 --> 00:51:31,004 Well, that does not fit. 850 00:51:33,256 --> 00:51:35,342 Paul Johnson knows this. 851 00:51:35,383 --> 00:51:38,220 So they went and got this ATF fire guy 852 00:51:38,303 --> 00:51:39,805 to come and tell the jury 853 00:51:39,846 --> 00:51:41,640 that the fire started on the girls. 854 00:51:44,142 --> 00:51:46,686 Every time you get something, a confession, 855 00:51:47,729 --> 00:51:52,067 that isn't quite like you thought it was... 856 00:51:53,819 --> 00:51:57,405 you go back and see, could it be true? 857 00:51:57,489 --> 00:52:01,451 {\an8}MICHAEL: 858 00:52:03,954 --> 00:52:06,456 {\an8}APD OFFICER: 859 00:52:08,750 --> 00:52:10,752 {\an8}MICHAEL: 860 00:52:10,836 --> 00:52:13,046 {\an8}♪ (SUSPENSEFUL MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 861 00:52:14,756 --> 00:52:16,716 JOHNSON: So we went to our expert 862 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:18,009 and he came back with a report 863 00:52:18,051 --> 00:52:20,720 that the fire not only could have, 864 00:52:20,762 --> 00:52:24,224 but I think he would say 865 00:52:24,307 --> 00:52:25,976 it definitely did start on the bodies. 866 00:52:30,522 --> 00:52:33,608 And then as it increased 867 00:52:33,692 --> 00:52:35,861 from where their bodies were, 868 00:52:35,902 --> 00:52:38,780 caught the things on the shelves on fire. 869 00:52:43,952 --> 00:52:46,955 Saying we changed it to match the confessions... 870 00:52:48,248 --> 00:52:49,416 No. (SCOFFS) 871 00:52:51,126 --> 00:52:54,087 We're just checking out, could it be true? 872 00:52:56,965 --> 00:52:58,633 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 873 00:53:00,093 --> 00:53:02,429 MIKE: "In addition to the factual issues for the jury, 874 00:53:02,512 --> 00:53:05,223 there were several significant legal issues 875 00:53:05,265 --> 00:53:06,683 for the court. 876 00:53:06,766 --> 00:53:09,186 Foremost, the admissibility 877 00:53:09,269 --> 00:53:10,854 of the defendant's own statement. 878 00:53:12,439 --> 00:53:15,358 The more difficult question involved the admissibility 879 00:53:15,442 --> 00:53:16,776 of the co-defendant's statements." 880 00:53:16,860 --> 00:53:18,778 ♪ (GRIPPING MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 881 00:53:18,820 --> 00:53:22,282 MIKE: In this case, Springsteen was on trial. 882 00:53:22,324 --> 00:53:24,117 Scott had taken the Fifth Amendment. 883 00:53:24,159 --> 00:53:25,452 He hadn't had his trial yet. 884 00:53:25,535 --> 00:53:27,913 He wasn't about to get on the stand 885 00:53:27,954 --> 00:53:31,499 in Springsteen's case and answer any questions. 886 00:53:31,583 --> 00:53:33,001 And the defense would say, 887 00:53:33,084 --> 00:53:36,379 "I can't cross-examine Scott about this statement. 888 00:53:36,463 --> 00:53:39,132 Therefore, it should not come in." 889 00:53:39,216 --> 00:53:41,301 AMBER FARRELLY: You can't use these confessions against each other 890 00:53:41,384 --> 00:53:43,178 because you have the Fifth Amendment right 891 00:53:43,261 --> 00:53:46,473 to not incriminate yourself and not testify. 892 00:53:46,556 --> 00:53:47,974 You have the Sixth Amendment right 893 00:53:48,058 --> 00:53:49,601 to confrontation. 894 00:53:49,643 --> 00:53:51,895 So if you accuse me of a crime, 895 00:53:51,978 --> 00:53:54,356 {\an8}then you have to come into court by God 896 00:53:54,439 --> 00:53:57,234 {\an8}and look me in the face and testify 897 00:53:57,317 --> 00:53:59,653 {\an8}about why you think I did this. 898 00:54:01,029 --> 00:54:02,989 Robert had the right not to testify, 899 00:54:03,031 --> 00:54:05,242 and we can't call Scott to the stand 900 00:54:05,325 --> 00:54:07,410 because he has the Fifth Amendment right to remain silent. 901 00:54:07,494 --> 00:54:11,581 So that's blatant consti-- blatant constitutional error. 902 00:54:12,999 --> 00:54:15,293 MIKE: So what I did was whittle everything out 903 00:54:15,335 --> 00:54:17,003 that referred to anybody else 904 00:54:17,087 --> 00:54:19,923 except what Scott was admitting that he did. 905 00:54:20,006 --> 00:54:21,841 In the statement I allowed in, 906 00:54:21,883 --> 00:54:23,593 there was absolutely no reference 907 00:54:23,677 --> 00:54:26,763 to any other individual involved in this crime. 908 00:54:26,846 --> 00:54:28,515 So it was just Scott saying, 909 00:54:28,598 --> 00:54:31,935 "I did this and I did this, and I did that." 910 00:54:33,895 --> 00:54:35,939 "After studying the law, I think I made 911 00:54:36,022 --> 00:54:37,857 the soundest decision I could. 912 00:54:37,899 --> 00:54:40,860 If it turns out to be wrong in the eyes of a higher court 913 00:54:40,944 --> 00:54:42,821 looking back, then so be it." 914 00:54:44,614 --> 00:54:47,200 JOE: I made no secret of telling the judge 915 00:54:47,242 --> 00:54:49,202 that I thought the trial had been unfair 916 00:54:49,286 --> 00:54:51,204 at virtually every turn. 917 00:54:52,372 --> 00:54:55,000 When Mike Scott's redacted confession came in 918 00:54:55,041 --> 00:54:56,501 on a Friday afternoon... 919 00:54:56,543 --> 00:54:57,627 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 920 00:54:57,711 --> 00:55:00,547 {\an8}...Robert leaned toward me and whispered, 921 00:55:00,630 --> 00:55:02,716 {\an8}"I'm a dead man, aren't I?" 922 00:55:02,757 --> 00:55:04,426 {\an8}And I said, "Yes, Robert, you are." 923 00:55:06,261 --> 00:55:07,887 MIKE: Could the defendant please rise? 924 00:55:10,724 --> 00:55:12,058 "We, the jury, find the defendant, 925 00:55:12,100 --> 00:55:13,643 Robert Springsteen IV, 926 00:55:13,727 --> 00:55:16,354 guilty of the offense of capital murder." 927 00:55:16,396 --> 00:55:18,398 Signed by the foreperson of the jury. 928 00:55:19,274 --> 00:55:21,318 And at this time, Mr. Springsteen, 929 00:55:21,401 --> 00:55:23,194 the court sentences you to death. 930 00:55:26,156 --> 00:55:28,950 It was one of the worst days of my life as a lawyer. 931 00:55:29,034 --> 00:55:30,994 ♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 932 00:55:31,828 --> 00:55:33,413 BARBARA: It was awful. 933 00:55:33,496 --> 00:55:36,458 You'd think it would be great. It was awful. 934 00:55:36,541 --> 00:55:37,917 {\an8}I was in the courtroom. 935 00:55:38,001 --> 00:55:41,004 {\an8}Me and my mother were trembling and shaking. 936 00:55:41,087 --> 00:55:46,092 {\an8}And crying, not because I like these people, I don't, 937 00:55:46,134 --> 00:55:49,095 but... (HESITATES) ...he's going to die. 938 00:55:50,013 --> 00:55:52,474 He's going... This man's going to die. 939 00:55:52,557 --> 00:55:55,602 And now we have blood on our hands, too. 940 00:55:56,269 --> 00:55:57,771 (CHUCKLES) 941 00:55:57,854 --> 00:56:00,690 -No, not right now. -I'm sorry. (SOBS) 942 00:56:01,941 --> 00:56:02,984 It's over. 943 00:56:03,068 --> 00:56:04,486 REPORTER 1: Is this what you wanted, Barbara? 944 00:56:04,569 --> 00:56:06,279 Well, we want some kind of ending. 945 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:08,365 (SOBS) 946 00:56:08,948 --> 00:56:09,991 It's... 947 00:56:11,242 --> 00:56:12,577 REPORTER 2: How do you feel? 948 00:56:12,619 --> 00:56:17,040 Like it's a step in the right direction to bring these boys to justice. 949 00:56:18,249 --> 00:56:19,918 ♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC BUILDS) ♪ 950 00:56:19,959 --> 00:56:21,461 REPORTER 3: It took the Travis County jury 951 00:56:21,503 --> 00:56:23,254 less than three hours today 952 00:56:23,296 --> 00:56:26,299 to sentence Michael Scott to life in prison. 953 00:56:26,341 --> 00:56:29,260 RONNIE EARLE: We asked the jury to consider the death penalty. 954 00:56:29,302 --> 00:56:31,846 {\an8}They heard the evidence and decided 955 00:56:31,930 --> 00:56:34,599 {\an8}that a life sentence was appropriate. 956 00:56:34,641 --> 00:56:36,810 JOHNSON: When the verdicts came down, I was very happy. 957 00:56:36,893 --> 00:56:38,728 Of course, the verdicts in a criminal case 958 00:56:38,812 --> 00:56:40,021 has to be unanimous, 959 00:56:40,647 --> 00:56:42,649 so there was nobody 960 00:56:42,690 --> 00:56:49,239 among those 24 jurors that had any doubt 961 00:56:49,322 --> 00:56:51,658 that these were the right suspects. 962 00:56:51,741 --> 00:56:55,036 Maurice was the third one, 963 00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,581 so we were going to try Maurice next. 964 00:57:00,208 --> 00:57:02,669 But that never happened. 965 00:57:05,171 --> 00:57:06,965 {\an8}The Travis County District Attorney announced 966 00:57:07,006 --> 00:57:09,008 {\an8}he will not seek a murder trial 967 00:57:09,092 --> 00:57:11,136 {\an8}in the investigation of Maurice Pierce. 968 00:57:11,177 --> 00:57:12,846 {\an8}NEWSCASTER 1: What led District Attorney Ronnie Earl 969 00:57:12,929 --> 00:57:15,598 {\an8}to give up even before the trial began? 970 00:57:15,682 --> 00:57:19,018 RONNIE: The evidence shows Maurice Pierce's guilt. 971 00:57:19,102 --> 00:57:21,521 We just don't have enough to prove his guilt 972 00:57:21,563 --> 00:57:22,605 beyond reasonable doubt. 973 00:57:22,689 --> 00:57:25,024 JOHNSON: I didn't think we had enough evidence 974 00:57:25,066 --> 00:57:27,026 to assure a conviction 975 00:57:27,068 --> 00:57:29,279 because Maurice never confessed. 976 00:57:29,362 --> 00:57:31,906 NEWSCASTER 2: Surrounded by his wife and ten-year-old daughter, 977 00:57:31,990 --> 00:57:34,200 Maurice Pierce is free, no longer waiting 978 00:57:34,284 --> 00:57:35,660 for his day in court. 979 00:57:35,702 --> 00:57:37,454 "When I was detained and arrested, 980 00:57:37,537 --> 00:57:39,205 I proclaimed that I was innocent 981 00:57:39,289 --> 00:57:41,040 of all the charges that were filed against me, 982 00:57:41,082 --> 00:57:44,210 and I am standing here today with that same proclamation." 983 00:57:44,294 --> 00:57:45,879 REPORTER 1: Maurice Pierce, you're a free man. 984 00:57:45,920 --> 00:57:48,214 -How do you feel to be out now? -MAURICE PIERCE: Happy. 985 00:57:48,256 --> 00:57:50,216 NEWSCASTER 3: Austin police released a statement 986 00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:53,011 emphasizing that Pierce was not exonerated 987 00:57:53,052 --> 00:57:56,347 and that their investigation continues. 988 00:57:56,389 --> 00:57:59,225 {\an8}Remember, their initial investigation 989 00:57:59,267 --> 00:58:00,643 {\an8}focused on Maurice Pierce. 990 00:58:00,727 --> 00:58:02,061 ♪ (PENSIVE MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 991 00:58:02,103 --> 00:58:04,272 AMBER: Their belief was that he was the ringleader, 992 00:58:04,355 --> 00:58:06,024 the mastermind behind all of this. 993 00:58:07,567 --> 00:58:09,819 {\an8}The only reason Michael and Robert 994 00:58:09,903 --> 00:58:12,739 {\an8}come into play is because of Maurice Pierce. 995 00:58:12,822 --> 00:58:14,699 He's the central focus of all of this. 996 00:58:16,159 --> 00:58:17,410 {\an8}JOHNSON: When he was released, 997 00:58:17,452 --> 00:58:19,078 {\an8}it was always with the intention 998 00:58:19,162 --> 00:58:21,206 {\an8}of we're going to still go after him. 999 00:58:22,332 --> 00:58:25,168 {\an8}We do not have the evidence to convict him right now. 1000 00:58:26,085 --> 00:58:27,212 {\an8}But life is long. 1001 00:58:28,463 --> 00:58:30,381 JOHNSON: I think there's more evidence out there. 1002 00:58:30,423 --> 00:58:33,801 I believe that there are other people 1003 00:58:33,885 --> 00:58:38,515 that know very specific things about what happened 1004 00:58:38,598 --> 00:58:40,642 in and around the yogurt shop that night 1005 00:58:41,559 --> 00:58:44,270 that we have not developed yet. 1006 00:58:44,354 --> 00:58:46,272 ♪ (DRAMATIC MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 1007 00:58:49,817 --> 00:58:51,486 (INDISTINCT CHATTER) 1008 00:58:52,362 --> 00:58:53,613 CARLOS: March of 2008, 1009 00:58:53,696 --> 00:58:55,406 we get a call from the judge's office 1010 00:58:55,448 --> 00:58:58,451 saying, "Hey, can you come and meet right now?" 1011 00:58:59,202 --> 00:59:00,453 When we got there, 1012 00:59:00,495 --> 00:59:02,956 prosecutors said, "We've been doing more DNA testing 1013 00:59:02,997 --> 00:59:05,625 and we have found a full profile." 1014 00:59:05,708 --> 00:59:09,587 Our evidence includes DNA from one male 1015 00:59:09,629 --> 00:59:11,631 whose identity is not yet known to us. 1016 00:59:14,175 --> 00:59:15,260 Questions. 1017 00:59:15,301 --> 00:59:17,637 The DNA doesn't belong to Michael. 1018 00:59:17,720 --> 00:59:19,681 It doesn't belong to Robert Springsteen. 1019 00:59:19,764 --> 00:59:22,684 It is not any one of these four boys. 1020 00:59:22,767 --> 00:59:25,687 So you have to then explain, where does it come from? 1021 00:59:25,770 --> 00:59:28,147 Well, it comes from the killer. 1022 00:59:29,732 --> 00:59:31,442 ♪ (MUSIC FADES) ♪ 1023 00:59:31,484 --> 00:59:33,361 ♪ (OMINOUS MUSIC PLAYING) ♪ 1024 00:59:58,511 --> 01:00:00,179 ♪ (MUSIC CONCLUDES) ♪